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Should the Catholic Church under Pope Benedict XVI reverse the reforms of the Vatican II Council in the 1960s?

Results so far:

Yes
44% 32 votes Total: 72 votes
No
56% 40 votes
Yes

The Catholic Church after Vatican Council II is not the same church that Our Lord instituted. The reforms of Vatican II should be reversed, the laity should learn the truth about the faith, and the priests should be re-instructed in tradition in the seminary. A lot of souls are going to hell because they are not receiving the same guidance they used to by Holy Mother Church.

I was just baptized a little over a year ago, so all of this is new to me. But I also have the advantage of remembering my catechism probably much more clearly than most. Also, I was baptized in a traditional church, so we used the catechism that was used before Vatican Council II. In this catechism, you learn how you may know the Church when you see it. The Church is to have four marks. It is one, it is holy, it is catholic (meaning universal), and it is apostolic.

The Church is one in government and in doctrine. By saying the Church is one in government I am referring to the hierarchy of the Church. A single parish is under a priest, the priest is under a bishop, bishops are under the archbishops, archbishops are under the primates, the primates are under the Holy Father, and the Holy Father is under Our Lord from whence all authority comes. The Church is one in doctrine in that every member of the Church believes the same truths, has the same faith. This brings in the articles of faith and the sacraments. Every catholic is to believe that Our Lord was true man and true God, that He was the conceived by the Holy Ghost by the Virgin Mary, that he suffered and died for our sins, was resurrected, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father "from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead". (Apostles Creed). A Catholic also must believe in the trinity and unity of God. This is that God is three divine Persons in one. There are many other truths that are to be believed.

The second mark of the true Church is that it is holy. The Church is holy because its founder is holy, its doctrine is holy and its members are invited to a holy life. The Church does not seem to have as many holy members as it used to for sure. Even some of its clergy is not holy as it should be. This is evidenced by all the scandals of child abuse and homosexuality which happens among some Novus Ordo priests. This never occurred before Vatican Council II. The Novus Ordo Church no longer teaches a holy doctrine. The Church has become ecumenical. This means that it promotes unity among all Christian churches. This inadvertently sends the message to its members that the protestant churches are correct, or that they can be saved within any church, which is not so. A lot of the members believe in unholy doctrine and have differences in belief. This is proof that the Novus Ordo Church is not one, holy or universal.

The Church is universal (catholic) in time, place and doctrine. Since Jesus Christ told his Apostles to preach to the whole world, the Church has existed, teaching and laboring to the present time. It teaches all throughout the whole world, not just in one place. Being universal in doctrine means that it teaches same doctrines and administers the same Sacraments everywhere. This mark is no longer held by the Novus Ordo Church because, since they changed the words of the Sacraments, priests can pretty much say whatever they want, within certain limits I'm sure, but they can not all be saying the same thing throughout the whole world. This is why the Mass was in Latin before Vatican Council II. Any catholic could go anywhere in the world, and go into any Catholic Church, and be able to follow the Mass with his or her Roman Catholic missal. Can you imagine an American Catholic going to India now and following along during Mass?

The fourth mark of the Church is that it is Apostolic.The Church is Apostolic because it was founded by Christ and His Apostles, is governed by their successors, and it teaches their doctrine and never will cease to do so. The Apostles were instructed to preach the gospel as Our Lord instructed them. This includes the Sacraments which were instituted by Our Lord. The Sacraments, as instituted by Our Lord, are baptism, the Holy Eucharist, confirmation, penance, holy orders, matrimony, and extreme unction.The three necessary things to make a Sacrament valid are matter, form and intent. Matter is the pouring of water in baptism or the anointing with oil in confirmation, for example. Form is the words said during the Sacrament. Intent is on the part of the minister of the sacrament and/or the person or persons receiving the Sacrament. (Not evey Sacrament requires intent on the part of the minister, and the priest is not the ordinary minister in every Sacrament, such as marriage.) The first thing the Vatican Council did was change the words of the consecration at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This makes it invalid. Thus, everyone who attends a Novus Ordo Mass where the host has not been validly consecrated, is committing material idolatry. This is a sin against the first commandment. This is not the case at every Novus Ordo Mass, but there is always that possibility. All of the Sacraments were changed by Vatican Council II. This causes irreverence, sin, and loss of souls and faith, and many other problems in society. For example, if a person commits a mortal sin, they are bound to go to confession. After Vatican Council II, many people could have gone to confession to a priest who may not have been validly ordained, therefore their sins would not be really forgiven because only a priest who is validly ordained may forgive sins. Or if the priest is validly ordained, he may not intend to forgive your sins or consecrate the host. If a priest does not have the intention, most Sacraments are not valid.Another aspect of being Apostolic is to go out on missions and try to convert all nations. This does not occur as it should. The Novus Ordo Church is not the same as it was when Christ and the Apostles founded it. Thus, it is not Apostolic.

Given that the Novus Ordo Church no longer has any of the four marks outlined in the Baltimore catechism as the marks by which the True Church may be known, one may conclude that the Novus Ordo Church is not the True Church. Many atrocities have taken place since Vatican Council II. These include invalid consecrations, mass material idolatry, irreverence, desecration of hosts, abuse, lack of faith, and most importantly, the loss of so many souls to hell. This is not the Catholic Church that Our Lord instituted. This is not to say that all priests are bad, or the Pope is bad, it is just to say that the reforms of Vatican Council II have caused much more harm than good and the end result is that the Roman Catholic Church no longer has the marks of the True Church. For this reason, it would be best for the world, and for many, many souls if the laity and priests were instructed in tradition and really taught their faith, and if the reforms of Vatican Council II were reversed.

Works Referenced: An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism of Christian Doctrine. Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead. 1988. Tan Books and Publishers Inc. Rockford, Illinois. 61105

Learn more about this author, Krystal Greene.
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No

No. Do you really want to go back to the Latin Mass? Do you want to only see the back of the celebrant? Do you want to kneel at the altar to receive the Eucharist and have the server put the bread on your tongue instead of receiving the bread in your hand? Do you want the hierarchy of the Catholic Church to tell you want to do again? Do you want the men of the Catholic Church to dominate women and children again?


The Catholic Church should not reverse the reforms of the Vatican II Council from the 1960s. It is much more inclusive and friendly to see the celebrant face the people as is done in other churches. It is wonderful to go to a Catholic Church anywhere in the English speaking world and know what will happen at the mass and to be able to understand what is going on. It is more meaningful to have the readings read by men and women and not just by ordained men. It is more efficient to have the Eucharist distributed by holy men and women rather than just by the priest. It is empowering to allow girls to serve as altar servers as well as boys; this practice has also stopped the practice of Catholic priests molesting young boys. It has been very helpful to allow Deacons to be married. With the reduction in the number of priests, large parishes now have multiple Deacons to carry out various church ministries. All of these post-Vatican II practices make women more equal in the Catholic Church instead of being treated as second class citizens or temptations.


The goal of the Second Vatican Council was to promote peace and the unity of all humankind; it was to modernize the Catholic Church while maintaining its doctrines and theology. It made the lay people full members of the Catholic Church and allowed them a voice in parish government. It allowed the laity to participate in the mission of the Catholic Church. As a result of Vatican II, Catholics have become more involved with social justice. Lay people and the clergy now serve those in need. Roman Catholics started reading the Bible again after Vatican Council II. Vatican Council II started dialogs with other churches which lessened some of the divisiveness between Christians.


Vatican Council II gave all Catholics the hope of eternal life. It re-emphasized that all believers share in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Vatican Council II reinstated the resurrection of the whole person and not just the soul and the survival of the human self after death.

Learn more about this author, Helena Whyte.
Contact this writer Click here to send this author comments or questions.

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